The Business Owner's Guide to Copy Editing vs. Copywriting

Sasha: 0:00

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So go ahead, pull up a chair, grab a notepad, and let's talk business. Welcome to Strategy for Creatives: Business Minus the Bullshit. I of course, am your host Sasha. And today, I'm actually having a conversation with someone that I did a strategy discovery call with and I found her business so fascinating and something that I really didn't know much about, that I invited her to be a guest on the show. Because I think that if you are outside of this world, you probably have very little understanding of the distinction between the two things that we're gonna be talking about today. And so, I wanted to talk about specifically copy editing, and I know a lot of people are gonna go right towards copywriting. And most of us know what that is. But this actually a thing and I think most people don't realize that it might be a thing. And so to have this conversation with me today, I am talking to Jasmine Jae Herman, who is a strategic brand and marketing consultant and a copy editor with 20 plus years of digital marketing experience. She has helped hundreds of small businesses, authors, entertainers, and nonprofits create engaging content and blogs, marketing campaigns, books and podcasts. She's very passionate about environmental sustainability and helping creative professionals share engaging and grammatically sound content. She's very proud of her work with B is for black excellence, the Ford Foundation and PBS Kids and she's been featured in Block, which was formerly Square, ,and Fast Companies. When she's not working, you can find her watching sci fi action movies, she loves playing Scrabble, which doesn't surprise me. And or she's solving New York Times Wordle puzzles, which also doesn't surprise me. I suck at both of those because I'm not good at words. My husband is really big into Scrabble, and he grew up playing it with his mom. And I played him exactly one time. And it's because I am just not good. I think it's because my parents, my parents both grew up in Spanish speaking households. So English in general, and then spelling never came naturally. So I don't play him in Scrabble. But it doesn't surprise me that you like it. So, Jae, welcome to the show.

Jae: 5:58

Thank you very, very much. We got to have to talk about you and this Scrabble.

Sasha: 6:03

I used to play back in I guess it was the early 2000s. We played like Words with Friends. And I would play with his mom, my mother in law, and I would just, I would get demolished every game. Three three letter words that I can do that. Four letter words, possibly. Anything other than that? Yeah,my mind just does not work that way. I can't. Like once he would put the words on the board. I'm like, Oh, that makes sense like that. I could see that.

Jae: 6:35

I totally, I totally get it. I totally get it. Because I grew up playing Scrabble with my mom and my brother. And she would roast us practically every single time. I mean, she would come up with these words we're like that isn't mom, that's not a word. She's like, yes, it is. Look it up. And of course, you challenge you lose your turn. So yeah. But my brother would come up with first like mythology.

Sasha: 6:56

Using those "y"s and those "z's" . Yeah, I just it's not for me, I know where my strengths lies. And it is not in writing. But I wanted to bring you on the show, because we had this conversation when we were talking about your business. And I realized that I don't think most people know the difference between what a copywriter and a copy editor does. And so let's start there. What exactly is a copy editor?

Jae: 7:29

It's interesting. So first off, I have to say that we didn't talk about so there's copywriter, content writer, copy editor, ghost writer.

Sasha: 7:41

Oh, there's so many! Ghost writer I know, I know what a ghost writer is. I know what a copywriter is. I feel like I know what a content writer is like, I hope I do. I feel like it's all explanatory. Possibly. Well, maybe do you want to break down what the differences is a little bit then?

Jae: 7:57

So I mean, essentially, we all work with copy or written text, right. And so a huge difference between a copywriter and a content writer is the copywriter is writing content that is persuasive, getting people to, you know, to purchase something to schedule something. And, you know, I typically say like, a copywriter is the person that you you date, a content writer is the one that you marry, because they're in it for the long haul. Like they're in there doing the strategy, they're looking at the long term advantage of making sure that your audience is they're well fed, so to speak with content, helping them to make a decision, you know, so yeah, that's, that's the person you want to build your life with. But a copywriter may come in a project base, and do like an email sequence or a landing page or, you know, a short form blog posts, whereas the content writer is the person who's giving them the strategy and giving them the content to potentially write. So that's sort of the difference there, but a con, a copy editor, which is what I do, we work with all of that. So we'll work with a copywriter and the content writer to make sure that everything is grammatically sound, that punctuation is on point that everything flows, that syntax, that your sentence structure that all of that is flowing in such a way that no one's going to look at it going. now see there should be a comma there. You know, or catching the typos. So that's what a copy editor does. A copy editor is not a copy, read copy writer, nor is a copy editor and ghostwriter or a content writer. At times, there are times where those things might overlap. You may work with someone who is a copywriter and a copy editor and a content writer but they may or may not do all of those things on the same project and nor should they. Because, you know, typically, if you're working with copy, you know, for a period of time, you just miss things. So you want someone who is either one stage behind or before the content so that nothing gets missed. I hope that answers your question.

Sasha: 10:20

It does, actually, because but so I, which leads me to my other question, because I think of copy editing, in the way that it's described most when it comes to writing books. You know, authors, they, you know, they write, and I've read so many books and have, a lot of my books are about people who are authors, like, there are a lot of romance novels, but you know, they're writing a book, and then they have to send it to their copy editor before by a published date, you know, and all that stuff. And so I've always understood it in that context. But when it comes to using it in more of a business context, when would you need a copy editor for that? Because I think people know when they need a copywriter. I need my website about page done. I need, you know, my landing page and like you said, or email sequence, but when would I need to search out for a copy editor in my business?

Jae: 11:13

So thank you for that question. The difference for an author who's working with a copy editor versus, you know, an entrepreneur, solopreneur, or something like that. So there are different levels of copy editing for a manuscript, right? Before you know, something has been published as a book. There's developmental editing, substantive editing, line editing, copy, editing, proofreading. So those terms, typically, an author working with a publicist will understand that those are the different levels of editing that a managed manuscript would need. A solopreneur, marketing director, you know, entrepreneur, they don't have to be necessarily concerned with those different levels of editing, because that's not what their content needs. Typically, an entrepreneur or a company marketing director will seek out an editor for that middle stage after something it's being copy written, and before it's being published out into the world. So ideally, I will work with the copywriter on the team as that content is moving through the funnel. So I would see the content before it gets published before it goes to a proofreader. Now at times, I may be the copy editor and proofreader, but again, it's like if everything is tiered properly, I wouldn't copy edit it and then immediately proofread it. There's like copy editing, and then it would go into design. And then it goes to proofreading. So I might see it in the final design stage. But yeah, so manuscript copy editing has those different layers, but not necessarily for marketing campaign copywriting.

Sasha: 12:54

I don't think people think of the writing as having like, those distinct stages. Because I think I've thought of it myself, and I know so many business owners who think the same way. It's like, okay, I, you know, I need a website page done. I'm gonna get a copywriter, she wrote my copy, and I'm just gonna put it on the website and process done. And now I have good copy. And we don't even think about that step. I mean, I guess, in my mind, maybe the proofreading stage comes from like, when they send it to us and we read it and we're like, okay, it sounds good. We may or may not be checking for grammatical errors, you might be relying on something like Grammarly to help you out. But you don't even think about having a third party come in and say like, oh, no, we're missing commas. Or this isn't structurally correct or something like that. I've even seen copywriters where I've gotten stuff written back from them and I'm like, this doesn't sound all the way right. Like I don't know, if it's all the way grammatically... like it sounds... I can see where they were going with what they were trying to write. But it doesn't sound right. So it makes sense that, and I truly didn't this until I started talking to you that it makes sense that you probably need a person in there.

Jae: 14:21

Oh, yeah. I mean and granted. Also consider that a copywriter is really well versed with SEO, they are really verse in conversion. They're not necessarily involved with the minutiae and the nuances of grammar and punctuation and things like that, nor should they be.

Sasha: 14:41

I think people think they are though because when you think of anything that that's a writer if you think it's a writer in it then you know you love English, like maybe you studied in school, you know, you studied literature or something like that. You love writing and so that means you're like good at writing. You might be good at putting like thoughts on paper, but not necessarily at writing. Right?

Jae: 15:05

That's exactly right. And it also brings up like, what type of training does a copywriter have versus a copy editor. And there isn't necessarily a degree. There are certifications that you can get in editing, copy editing, but there isn't necessarily a degree, you can have a journalism degree and be really well versed in how to write in that capacity. But that's not the same as conversion, writing, and it's just, it's a totally different beast. So you can also have many years in your industry, in a field, and know your business inside out, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to write grammatically sound content about that industry. So I typically will find that that's the case where someone's like, this is my business. I know what it is, I know how to write it, I'm just gonna put it out there. Or maybe I'll get someone to write it for me, I'll look it over. And then it's good to go. And when you come across those websites, where again, it's missing a certain flow, or it's missing punctuation, there you go, probably didn't have a copy editor. And so a lot of times, granted, when I get an offer that comes to me, who's also releasing marketing material, it's an easier sell, because they understand the different nuances. But I also have to educate my you know, freelance people, my entrepreneurs, my solopreneurs, that you need a copy editor. Doctors need doctors, I have an editor. Right? So it's like, I don't release things without another professional looking at my word. So I'm sorry, why should you think that You don't need someone to help me with yours?

Sasha: 16:52

No. And that's, that's exactly why I wanted you on the show. Because I think most people don't know the distinction. And they think that when you are hiring someone to write copy that it is that. That person is doing all of it, like they're going to make sure it's grammatically sound, that it's flowing correctly, that you know, your thoughts are coming out the right way that they're selling, you know, like they're doing the goal of whatever you want this written copy to be without even realizing that there's a whole category of people who like literally just read and check grammer and make sure that it's right. So I guess I would ask because to kind of you mentioned this a little bit, to your point, like, what do you say to people when they're like, I, you know, I don't need a copy editor? I'm just gonna read what my copywriter wrote me and if it sounds good to me, and, you know, because people might have been looking at grammar like that closely. You know, it's not something... you know, people are going to look for the your/your're like, they they'll catch things like that, but there's a really matter if like the commas not there or something like that. What do you say to people like that?

Jae: 17:59

um, several things. One being if the lack of a comma, or too many comments, too much punctuation is the difference between you making a sale and not making a sale wouldn't you want to make sure that you have it down. That's big thing, right? That's bottom line. But then also, too, it's about trust and building relationships with someone. So if I come across a website, and I feel like if I'm seeing errors, because I'm a copy editor, I really can't not see them. But if I see that I feel like what type of business person is this, that they didn't put in the time and energy they make sure that this isn't, you know, this doesn't make me feel comfortable? This isn't...doesn't, you know, elicit a lot of trust, you know, then I may be less inclined to want to do business with that person. So to feel that it's not important, it really is because you may, you may never know that someone decided not to work with you because they don't trust your copy. Unless you have someone like me who will send you an email or, like, Girl you missed a comma. Because I can't let it go.

Sasha: 19:12

I had an experience like that not necessary. I don't know if it falls into copy editing when I was in my in my former life of business when I did stationery. Because I never realized there was a difference between stationery for stationery that means like, written things like paper, and stationary as in you're not moving. I had my whole website, spelled stationary with "ary". And it wasn't until someone who was in the industry pointed out to me like hey, just so you know, like stationery dealing with papers "ery". And at first I was kind of like a little offended by it. I was like, why would you send me that because it was totally unprompted. But then I was like, oh, like I I'm out here looking like I I don't know what I'm talking about because I can't even spell stationery, right and that's what I did. So it probably would have benefited me if having someone like you say, this is not the right word, this is the word you're supposed to be using.

Jae: 20:14

Yes. I mean, you know, no matter who you're working with, whether it's a copywriter, a content writer or a copy editor, it is not our job to tell you that you've done something wrong. That is not our goal. The whole purpose is to help you polish and you know, be your best self, not to say that I I know better than you. That's not what we're doing. So, you know, with something like that you want to be kind, even when you know, when I'm giving editing, I'm like, no, no. Oh, girl, I know, that's just wrong, right? So you want to be compassionate and kind and recognize that I don't know everything, I make mistakes just like the next person. So if I wouldn't want to receive harsh criticism in a really bad way, then certainly that's not how I deliver that to someone. So if I saw that, you know, I would be very kind and say, can we talk? Can I just point something out for you? And I mean, I do do that on occasion, because I want someone to do that with me and not feel like well, she should know better.

Sasha: 21:19

Yeah, I purposefully went forward and like every time, because I was in a lot of Facebook groups that were with other stationery makers, and every time it was someone new, and I would see them make the same mistake I did. I was just like, hey, like, I used to do this just so you know, like, E just remember that one, because it's like E for envelope. And like, that's how you know, you remember, you're using the right one. And a lot of they were like, Oh my God, thank you so much. Like I didn't realize and it's so small things that and and again, I think it just comes from me. I knew there was obviously no there's a different difference in the definition of the words. But both my parents grew up in Spanish households like I didn't. My mom still to this day speaks very phonetically with some words, and so she doesn't pronounce them the right way all the time. So I didn't grow up, like, you know, reading and I read a lot, but I didn't grow up always knowing how things were spelled or, you know, how, where you put the commas and places and it was stuff I had to teach myself. So yeah, I think especially for people like me, it probably benefits to have someone come in and like make sure that you're doing it right. I mean, I even had a struggle with my Christmas cards. Like my last name is Willis. And, you know, for the longest time on our Christmas cards, I would just sign it the Willis family because I didn't know how you wrote out the Willises like, you know that apostrophe s or, you know, which I learned it's the ES at the end like you add that and so, like little things like that, that you don't even think about that having someone come in and just saying hey, like, this is how you should do it.

Jae: 22:51

Exactly. And you know, speaking of spelling and you know, careers like so I when I was going through one of my certifications, I had someone point out that I was spelling copy editing wrong. That it's one word, and I was like that's not necessarily true. Copy editing...

Sasha: 23:18

People do it different ways. Like copy writer, copywriter together, copy edited together or separate

Jae: 23:26

Copy writer. So think title, you're speaking about someone, right? So two words. But the difference with copy editing, it's like, like a videographer or someone who edits video if you only put editor that could be video, that could be copy, could be a number of things. So that's the distinction why we put copy editor now to see them as one word, or copy editing is one word. It's not right or wrong. It is essentially a personal choice. If you see it hyphenated like if you're working in grammerly Grammarly will flag copy editing. Let me just set the record straight. Say if you're working with an editor, and she has hyphen or no hyphen, it is not grammatical.

Sasha: 24:16

So at least inow you know, it's no hyphen, but it can be one word or two words.

Jae: 24:23

I personally because I'm also phonetic in how I work with a lot of content, I prefer to see them separate. So in all of my content, when I speak of myself as a copy editor, it's always two words.

Sasha: 24:38

That's good to know. So now when I can Google copy editor, I can make it two word

Jae: 24:45

Although some people will say the act of editing copy is copy editing as one word but just saying...

Sasha: 24:53

I think I feel like that's that's the thing when it comes to just writing in general and language I mean It's always evolving, right? Like words that never used to be words are now a thing. You know, it's a changing thing, which is more of a reason why having someone come in and looking at what's been written for you, or what you're writing yourself and making sure like, you know, yeah, this might be a new way to phrase something. But let's still make sure that it is as grammatically correct as it can be, in the context that you're using it for, for the audience that you're using it for, like having just those extra set of eyes is helpful when it comes to things like that.

Jae: 25:36

It's true, it's true, I mean, and when you consider like, if you're free working with fiction or nonfiction, there will be a different voice. So you have a lot more leeway. Unless your brand is very informal, and you want your copy to sound as close to how you speak as possible, then, obviously, you want to make sure that your editor is aware of that, and it's in, ideally, a content style guide. So they are informed. But on the same token, like I said, copy editors are not supposed to, we're not coming in to say do this exactly this way. Because I... Honey, I'm not wanting to put positions at the end of a sentence. And yet, we do it all the time. It is more common to find that in copy now, I will see it and cringe. But it is not necessarily wrong at this stage of our evolution and how you know, language evolves.

Sasha: 26:30

I did read that. I read an article recently that was like, you know that it was a very old way of writing. And it's not necessarily true anymore. And I appreciate that you said that if you have an informal way of working with your audience that you know, to make sure that your copy editor knows that. I have this internal struggle with myself every time I write an email, because I always say like, I'm gonna do something. And I want my emails to be like "me" sounding but I'm like, do I put gonna or do I put going? Because I know which one is the right word. But which one do... I like what am I trying to convey when writing this? I appreciate that you're not; that you won't be like, no, you can't use gonna, like, it's more so like, you know, if you have a content style guide, like this is the language that I use frequently. This is you know, how I want to sound. Edit within those parameters.

Jae: 27:23

That's exactly right. And my copy writer, Jo Harris, we just started working together recently. And when I gave her my content style guide, and I was saying, you know, I like to be very informal. You know, I'm very casual with my clients. I treat them like family, they're friends, you know, and she was like, no, no, your content doesn't read that way. I was like, oh. Again, it's a situation where I'm so close to it and how I work with my clients one-on-one is very different than the type of content that I release in a social, or a blog post or an in a guide, right? So when you're working with someone, and they recognize that you ebb and flow, you work with that. But again, no one is saying you have to do it exactly this way. Unless it's like totally egregious. Totally off like, you're/your right. We don't want that ever. Never.

Sasha: 28:22

It's an immediate way to say like, No, I don't want to work with this person like you. We should all know that one.

Jae: 28:28

Yes, exactly.

Sasha: 28:31

Well, Jae, I appreciate you being on the show. This has been a very fascinating conversation about copy that I think hopefully, those who are listening to the show, will probably when they saw the title, they were probably like, what is why would I want to listen to this episode, but I knew it was just gonna be such an interesting conversation. So Jae, wait, where can people find you and learn more about copy editing?

Jae: 28:53

Oh, my gosh. So to learn more about copy editing from me, you can check out my website at bosscopyediting.com. And for everyone who's ever wondered, what do we look at copy editors specifically, I have a free guide that is also on my website. It is the top 10 writing hacks that editor's wish you knew but won't tell you.

Sasha: 29:14

And I'll make sure to put the link to that in the show notes for the episode. I'm gonna download it myself because I know that.. I'm gonna get it and just be like, oh, I'm probably doing all of these things so wrong.

Jae: 29:29

You might be surprised.

Sasha: 29:32

Well Jae thank you so much for being on the show. It's really good.

Jae: 29:35

Thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate you.

Sasha: 29:39

Happening next week on the Strategy for Creatives podcast, I'm talking to Megs Thompson, a professional words worker, intuitive writing coach, ghostwriter, author and publisher about how writing a book can help grow your business. So don't forget to tune in next Tuesday to listen to the episode. Thanks for tuning in to the latest episode of the Strategy for Creatives podcast. I hope you enjoyed the insightful discussion, and hopefully found valuable tips that you can put in your business today. If you found the podcast helpful, I'd love it if you take a moment to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps me make a better show and reach more listeners like you. And don't forget to share the podcast with your favorite business owner who could benefit from the strategies and insights I share on the show. New episodes come out every Tuesday, so make sure to subscribe and stay up to date with the latest trends and techniques for growing your creative business. If you want more don't forget to join the Strategy for Creatives Facebook group, or you can follow me on Instagram @strategybysasha. Have a topic suggestion or a question you want to hear answered? Email me at hello@strategybysasha.com Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next week with another episode of the Strategy for

Creatives: 30:50

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